Live Tournament Busto (1/24/2011)
Monday, January 24, 2011 at 10:21PM One of my goals at the beginning of the year was to start playing tournaments more. Specifically, at least one $200+ buy-in per month. Well I filled that obligation tonight. I entered a winter open event at the Borgata and busted out in just 3 hours. Wasn't a big deal, cost about $180 to enter. Remembered why tournaments are such b.s most of the time. Really nothing I could do, didn't make any mistakes, but went bad.
The best hand I was dealt was AA once, which was dealt on literally the first hand of the tournament. There were only 5 people at the table at that time, took down a small pot. A big situation came up later when my stack was about 12-14 BBs. Just a big enough stack where I didn't want to go all in pre, but pretty much only had enough for a PRE raise and one move on the flop. So I'm dealt QQ UTG, raised 4x or so preflop. The guy of course calls, and heads-up flops the ACE holding AK. The same idiot talking about how he won an event early, I can't even imagine someone this bad winning a tournament. I saw him make some pretty big mistakes in just watching him 50 hands or so. Action is on me with QQ heads-up with the atocious flop:
A, 8, 3 (I believe)
Anyways, here I priced it so I could fold if he raised on the ace flop, which I did. I figured any sort of resistance against my C-bet and he has the ace. I raised just under half the pot, he raises of course, I fold, and he showed the AK. I know luck-box, but thanks for the show. At this point I only have about 5-6 BB's left and it's red-zone.
Eventually I shove the remaining 3,500 in chips (just over 4 BBs left) with 66 MP. I run into KK like usual. No help on the flop, turn or river. Christ you think I could at least find a coin-flip situation there.
I had fun though, it was a good experience. The play was a little worse than I expected. Location wise, I had a great seat despite getting no playable hands in any sort of meaningful situation. There was a drunk MEGA-DROOLER to my immediate right, he even doubled up. I just couldn't get one hand against this guy. He eventually stacked off holding T7s on a J, J, 7 board. Yeah the other dude had AJ or whatever.
I think there is a lot of value in touranments like these and I should keep them in my schedule at least once per month. Then again any tournament like this is 30%+ luck no matter what you do, so when I enter something like this losing the buy-in can't mean anything, which it didn't.
Tournaments need to be kept at a minimum though. I consider myself one of the more unlucky people on the planet, so how the hell am I going to cash in a tournament when there is 30%+ luck no matter what? I need money in with my opponent's down to two outs, and even then I expect to lose.
That's all for now. Off to make dinner and put in some online volume later, maybe 3-6 hours. The poker room at the Borgata is insane. NINE 2-5 games going on a Monday night, eleven 1-2. Pretty mind-blown. Some of the 2-5's looked very crazy and deep stacked. There's a duplicate event tomorrow, but I think I'll pass. Wasn't really trying to dump $400 on tournaments this week, but $180 was scheduled.
-bag
Reader Comments (7)
I'd be jamming pre on a < 15 bb stack with any hand I decide to play. And if folded to me in late position I'm jamming wide.
These live nits don't have good push/fold game and calling ranges so I'll jam shit like J8s down their throats and collect the dead money.
And if you shove a hand like 97s and get called it's often going to be by unpaired broadways so your equity isn't too bad.
Antes and the ante ratio make a huge difference... I don't jam too wide pre-antes. I'm more looking for re-shove spots at that point but if you lose your fold equity there's not much you can do ...
Plus jamming looks a lot weaker than a 4x UTG on a 14 bb stack. That open looks so fucking strong. I'd fold TT to your open without blinking. If you jam I think mid-pairs and other shit call you where they will fold if you make a scary looking open.
Interesting, yeah I can see the argument for jamming any <15 stack with any hand you decide to play. I don't like to jam it like this. With 15BB I feel like there is still enough room to play post-flop poker, but not so much with less than 10BB.
4x UTG was really strong, I'm happy taking it down, but he's certainly not folding his AK there. So I really ended up saving myself for a final shove at a later time, other-wise the tournament would have ended for me right there. I like QQ with the average one caller I'm going to get, just didn't flop well.
MTT's are all about maintaining fold equity and stack preservation. Ideally you do not want to fall below like 25 bb's because it severely limits your options.
If you think about the QQ hand ... we'll say you had 14 bb's when the hand started.
Let's say you raise 3.5x and get 1 caller in MP. The blinds fold.
There are now 8.5 big blinds in the pot and you have 10.5 left. Now what?
Do you shove the flop? Probably, since a c-bet of half pot means you are either:
A) Calling a shove or
B) Going all in on the Turn in which case your opponent must call with any two cards if he called you on the flop.
QQ is obviously strong but I'll just shove there every time and look to double up since I am so short. A lot of smaller pairs down to like 66 could call you. AK/AQ/KQ and that crap can call you etc. But a lot of them will fold the flop of you make a normal open and they aren't ahead of you on the flop.
Sorry man... one last thing.
This is how cash games can fuck up your mtt game. MTT's aren't about postflop poker after the first couple levels.
It's all 3 betting and squeezing and shit preflop and having a strong push/fold game. That's why they are so much easier to profit in than cash games. Stack sizes are always such that you won't be faced with as many tough decisions.
You just jam your stack a lot and hope to run good.
I can see that. I really haven't felt uncomfortable playing MTT tournaments when I have rarely played them during the last few months. I feel I have a strong understanding of profitable situations to push pre. I do play on short-stack tables all day. The pre-flop decisions there are a lot like certain stages of MTTs, and most people in MTTs have a pathetic understanding of the equity behind pushes. I Studied short-stack strategy on cash tables (and played it for a while), similarities have jumped out at me.
The QQ hand ok fine, I still make an argument to not push it there. Funny I shove JJ there. The only hands I would raise to 4x in that spot was QQ+. I don't mind a fish seeing a flop against my premium where I crush him most of the time, meanwhile any decent player runs from that raise, and good I'll take the blinds. Without a premium I'll just take the equity against range X. The fact that the player ended up having AK is sort of irrelevant, that's just being results oriented and he happened to wake up with a monster there. The logic behind the play was: A) A fish is going to call and get in stupid trouble post most of the time (where a full blown shove scares him). And B) Most opponent's are going to play what they're going to play here anyways. I still felt I could fold out on an atrocious flop and leave myself a stack big enough to still make a profitable play later and survive.
Are you arguing there is no post flop play in tournaments after a certain stage when you have a 14 BB stack. What about a 20BB stack? Can you link me here? There has to be a point where you say "ok I don't want to jam my entire stack here I'd rather play". For me it gets border-line with a 10-15 BB stack, where you can argue either way. With 15 the worse of a player you are I think the more you should lean towards shoving it.
You're the tourney guy though, my logic could be flawed here, just my take. Maybe if I shove in the hand above I bink a queen on the turn or river. Or heck maybe he folds the AK pre lol, who knows. Based on the guy no, but never know.
-bag
Yeah I'm slightly stretching the truth... there is some post-flop play but any hand you play where your stack is 25 bb or less you should honestly be looking to go the the felt with it.
If you play midstakes online mtt's you will see that the majority of action is pre such that all the money can get in on the flop.
You need to be > 35 bb's for it to get more intricate than that and the majority of your mtt life is spent between 10 and 30 bb's so you don't get into too much post flop action.
I see a lot of open shoves in mtt's for 15-20 bb's and when you do it you want to do it with your entire range so you are not playing your premium cards face up.
But honestly a $180 mtt live plays like a $5-10 mtt online. Not everyone will catch on to this. If, however, you move up and play bigger they definitely will take notice and adjust properly.
As an example... at a $600 mtt in Foxwoods I shoved 18 bb's from the CO with AJs and got snap called by A5o in the BB and doubled up. The player in the BB was about average in skill level. Nothing special.
I understand QQ has much more strength than AJs... the point is making a normal open is kind of exposing your hand to the table where shoving will often be perceived as AK/AQ and weaker pairs/hands.
25BB or less, looking to felt with it. Well that’s easy enough lol. Uh not a lot of skill involved in tournaments right?
I agree the $180 playing like a $5-$10 online. I really wasn’t impressed by the skill level or anything. It was worse then expected even for a small buy-in live MTT.
The foxwoods snap call with A5o there seems really stupid to me. Sounds like he drastically misunderstood your open-shove range there. What is he really hoping to have an equity advantage against that would justify that call holding A5o? It's certainly not correct even with the dead money from the blinds
I understand the point with QQ and appreciate the input. Hope all is well.
-bag