1-2 Goals and Weekend Tales (10/5/2010)
Monday, October 4, 2010 at 4:50PM Live Weekend Updates (10/4/2010)
Live Overview and Strategy:
I put in a hell of a lot of time on the live tables this weekend with some disappointing results. Just over 20 hours played, and finished down -$120 total. This was the first weekend I ended with a net loss so I can’t say I’m thrilled. However, it was perhaps “my time” for a downswing. I’m still up just under $2,000 from the last 60 hours of combined 1-2 live.
It’s senseless to look at bad live results during a 20 hour stretch when you consider the volume scale. I still hung in there and finished down not even a full buy in. There was an all in pre-flop hand on Saturday where my KK was destroyed by 22. As soon as I saw the three spades on the flop I knew I was fucked. Sure enough he turned the 4th spade to improve a flush holding deuce-deuce. The river blanked and I couldn’t even salvage a split. That was the most disgusting pot lost during the weekend. I took the beat well and didn’t say anything negative. I really had accepted I had lost as soon as I saw the board, just a terrible feeling.
How I start off playing live full time should be interesting. I’m forcing myself to put in as much live volume on the weekends as I can because I’m semi-obsessed with establishing a win-rate and feeling comfortable about my direction right now.
I’ve heard you should generally try to avoid starting out on 1-2 live and should just go straight to 2-5. I really have trouble with this logic. I don’t mind starting out 1-2 and winning a certain number of buy-ins before I go up. There is barely a skill difference when comparing 1-2 and 2-5, they are both very soft. My plan is to beat 1-2 for over 30 buy-ins before I move to 2-5 games. Beating 1-2 this bad will involve one key skill: discipline. You need discipline more than skill to beat 1-2 at a nice rate. You could have a laughable amount of skill, but still have the discipline to win. This is proven by the 80 year old fossils you occasionally see sitting on these tables. Not an ounce of skill in their body, all they have is discipline. And obviously something wrong with them to be contempt sitting on 1-2 tables every day at 60+, but that's another story. In the world of 1-2 live it's all discipline.
I see 1-2 as a very important “discipline exercise” before I move to the 2-5 live scene more permanently. It will also help me feel comfortable about my direction. You can take a variance smack and find yourself down 1k++ on 2-5 very quickly. I would prefer not starting out like this. I’d prefer playing with money I have already won; this should do wonders for my psychological state.
So as I stressed earlier, I’m not “above” skipping 1-2. I feel I have every reason to grind out the easier more "boring stakes" before moving up. I’ve generally been buying in $150 for playing 1-2 tables and it’s been working out for me. If I start to slip to around $110 I will chip up and add another +$50. I don’t have a set amount I will cash out at. I prefer feeling out the situation and using my judgment here. The least I have had on a live 1-2 table during the past month and a half is probably $110. The most I have had on a table at once is $1600. It depends.
1-2 Profit Goals Going Forward
Since I’m on the topic I might as well write in stone my specific goals right now. I want to earn at least $5,000 in net profit on the live 1-2 tables before I even consider mixing in 2-5 games. Extremely conservative, but I plan to put in the time to reach this goal in a timely fashion. I don’t care how bored I get with the tables; this is a “mandatory” goal I’m setting for myself.
Since I’m buying in generally $150:
$5000 (profit) / 150 (my buy in amount)= 33.33 buy ins.
+5k in profit would equate to winning 33.33 buy ins. Once I hit the +5k profit mark I will raise my buy ins to $200 on the 1-2 tables in preparation for moving up to 2-5. I then want to hit a minimum of +1k more in profits with $200 buy-ins on 1-2 tables before considering moving to 2-5. Using $150 buy-ins 6k in profit would equate to 40 buy-ins won.
Using a full $200 buy-in as a variable 6k in profit would still equate to 30 buy-ins won. I think the 6k in profit mark would be more impressive considering I would have only bought in $150 buy-ins during the first 5k stretch.
This is all very specific, but important at the same time. I am in charge of my own discipline and finances. I don’t have anyone bitching at me and telling me what to do, but I’m still holding myself to some standard. I have to answer to the master goals I set. Would I prefer starting out on 2-5? Hell yes. Do I have the bankroll to start out on 2-5? Sure I could nervously scrape together $15,000 and put it aside. But it’s about a logical progression. I’d rather grind 1-2 a month and prove to myself 100% that I deserve to be playing 2-5 and have a sense that I earned the right to play there.
I’ll also have plans in place on specific drop points if I hit a down-swing when I finally get to 2-5. Yes a down-swing may happen as soon as I start out on 2-5. But with a master plan in place this should only be a minor set-back. Keep in mind this 2-5 talk is assuming I don’t go broke playing 1-2 tables! Maybe it will take me 3 months to get to the 6k profit mark and move up! Maybe it will take 4 months! Maybe I will never hit it for that matter! If that’s the case then poker obviously isn’t the correct career choice for me, but I guess variance could be that sick?
Well even though my last day at my corporate job is still a few weeks off, I’m progressing nicely on my goal to hit 6k in profit and move up to 2-5 live NL. I’ve already pulled +$1950 off the live 1-2 tables in just over 60 hours of play. I’m a third of the way of there, but we all know that could change quickly with a slight down-swing, which I seem to be in the middle of. I’ll continue to battle this upcoming weekend and put in some time.
Some Weekend Stories
Friday Night (10/1/2010)
Let’s start with Friday! I arrived in Brigantine about 4:00 p.m and unpacked a lot of furniture. I hit the tables by 9:30 p.m and played until 4:30 a.m. At 12:30 a.m I took a 3-hour break and got a slice of pizza. There was a gorgeous girl working there who I couldn’t get out my head. I made small talk with her and she laughed and had a great smile. Also Russian. I beat myself up for not attempting to make a final move to get her number or something. I figured I go there sometimes and would have another chance to see her. I passed by the place Saturday and Sunday but did not see her again. So fuck my life.
After that 3 hour break I just knew the remainder of the session would go like shit. Sure enough I finished down -$95. I knew I should have sealed the deal with that girl and my fate for the night was already decided for being such a massive bitch. I just knew this would be the worst October 1st I had ever experienced.
I also stayed on the tables an extra 30 minutes where I made an uncharacteristic $50 mistake. I lost $50 due to a lack of discipline. I was very tired and had no business being on that table an extra 5 minutes, much less 30.
So I get back to my front door around 5:10 a.m. SURPRISE. My one other roommate who was home happened to lock the dead-bolt. So what’s the problem?
WE DON’T HAVE A KEY TO UNLOCK THE DEAD-BOLT.
We were given two keys, which we made copies of. We were not given a dead-bolt key. So I call and text this girl about 3 times. I also knock on the door very loudly. Apparently she’s in some sort of a coma because I can’t get a hold of her. Absolutely screwed I decide to try to sleep in my car. I drift in and out of sleep. Then it gets REALLY cold so I have to turn on the car to heat it up. I then turn the car off because I don’t want to give myself carbon monoxide poisoning or something. Probably really stupid and paranoid, but I’m not an expert on this area and didn’t want to risk it. So this cycle would repeat and I would again knock on the door and call my roommate trying to get a hold of her. Eventually around 7:45 a.m I gave up and decided to get breakfast.
I come back and repeat the cycle:
1) Banging on the door.
2) Texting roommate.
3) Calling the roommate.
4) CURSING REALLY LOUDLY. WHY THE FUCK DIDN’T I ASK FOR THAT RUSSIAN GIRL’S NUMBER?
5) Trying to pass out in my car.
6) Failing to fall asleep because it’s now freezing.
7) Heating up the car.
8) Turning it off again.
9) Repeat steps 1-8.
FINALLY this girl wakes up and answers the door around 10:30 a.m. I was furious at the time, but an understandable mistake. I didn’t show how mad I was and I’m not mad now. I mean shit happens, especially when you’re a total bitch and don’t hit on the girl of your dreams. I actually deserved it, I don’t fault my roommate. She was simply caught up in the grand scheme of fate that I had arranged for myself by not taking hitting on the girl earlier.
I eventually woke up around 3:30 p.m tired as hell. No wonder the tables didn’t go great this weekend…. But really it didn’t affect my play. It was just a shit weekend on the tables.
Sunday (10/3/2010)
I’ll wrap up with some of my Sunday. I got on the tables around 2:20 p.m. I was keeping an eye on the Ravens game while playing who pulled off an incredible come-back victory over the Steelers.
I was going to leave around 5:20 or 6:20 at the latest.
Then of course I hit a maniac gold-mine table. This was the craziest table I happened to stumble on the entire weekend. So being a shark that smelled blood it was against my nature to leave. I was especially not leaving until one whale in particular happened to leave. From 5:20 to 7:20 I couldn’t pick up one hand to go to war with.
Around 7:20 did a blatant seat switch to get to the immediate left of the whale. Now I finally had position on this lunatic and his $1200+ stack. He started getting even crazier. At this point he’s raising $15 pre-flop without looking at his hands.
And then it all came crashing down.
Imagine a whale washed up on your local beach. And instead of rescuing it you decide to shoot it with a rocket launcher.
That is exactly what happened to this guy. He lost the entire $1200 in the span of 10 minutes and left. YES ON A 1-2 TABLE I'M NOT KIDDING. $1,000 gone to one of the fundamentally worst players on the table. Board 8 9 10
Whale holds: 67o
Villian holds: JQo
And that was it. Of course he happened to get involved with the one idiot that could pretty much stack him. The stars had just aligned and a talentless fool happened to catch his complete miracle at the right time. A man who should have been broke out of the game 2 hours ago. 2 hours ago he caught a 3 outer on the river to double up to $400 against the whale. But now here he is stacking him for $1200. The villain left the table with +$2000 in profit shortly after. By far the luckiest day he will ever have in his life. But I do give him credit for leaving.
The whale soon spewed off his final $200+ with AQ off on a completely missed board. He then thanked everyone and left. He really was a class act. I felt somewhat bad because he was actually a really nice guy. Hopefully the money didn't mean a lot to him, it didn't seem like it. He seemed light hearted. It’s a shame I couldn’t get involved in one pot with him to double up a quick +$250 in profit, but that’s the way it goes down sometimes. I left around 8:00 p.m with only +$95 in profit for Sunday.
Soon after I began my long journey back to Maryland…
Reader Comments (8)
Bags, I think you are making the right decision not to rush into 2-5. You will make plenty of profit at 1-2, as you have already noted, and 2-5 will always be there. Also, embracing discipline is going to help you a lot. You seem to have the poker skill required to be successful and developing solid self control skills will help both on and off the poker table. Regarding the rather lackluster weekend, don't sweat it. You have plenty of time to win and you did not incur any significant loss. Not losing is the next best thing to actually winning. Stay focused and keep the posts coming.
The reason you hear people say to skip 1-2 entirely is because it can teach you extremely passive play which does not exist at 2-5.
At 2-5 there are still lots of fish but they are fish for different reasons. They overvalue their hands and they will only 3 bet with the top and bottom of their range while always calling with the middle of their range so you can exploit that by 4 betting them when they are in late position since they are far more likely to be doing it with the bottom of their range in that spot.
At 1-2 you very rarely hear the word "raise" when someone doesn't have the nuts or close to it.
Thanks for the comments. Lucypher yes I think it will be important to prove I have the discipline to steadily beat even this beginner level. I can't afford to slip up on discipline.
FK,
I can see the argument here. It's the most passive level I've played on. I wouldn't say it doesn't exist at 2-5, but much less. I will admit that you do have to be more passive in certain spots to get EV out of specific situations on 1-2. For example, you're going to have to complete a lot of SB's with any two cards with 5-6 limpers already in. However, discipline beats the passive play. It's harder to keep that discipline on 1-2 and I think that's why it's valuable NOT to skip it, the discipline is the most important. On every level or form of poker you need an incredible amount of discipline when playing full time. 1-2 is the ultimate discipline exercise if nothing else. Besides if I'm so much better then the 1-2 stakes I shouldn't have a problem clearing 6k rather quickly. Why not prove it? Besides, I would be making a reasonable living on my 1-2 play based on the past 60 hours (Not that I expect to be there long). Small sample size, but the point is an alright living can still be made by playing 1-2 live which is pretty mind-blowing to many.
Also:
"At 1-2 you very rarely hear the word "raise" when someone doesn't have the nuts or close to it."
I'm going to have to disagree here live. If I'm stuck at a table like that I will get up and immediately switch tables, I refuse to even waste my time. I'm not going to waste my time running over 1-2 nits for blinds when a profitable table is a few steps away.
People at the tables here are beginners and massively over-value hands. People will also call $10-$15 pre opens with a ridiculously wide range. It's not uncommon to open $15 and have 4 callers on the right table. Pretty ridiculous considering the $1-$2 blinds. You also see some loose cannons jamming all in pre-flop with 22 as discussed above at one point. The tables are different, but I've been finding some crazy loose-aggressive tables that don't even have a great understanding of hand values. The 1-2 tables are not all so passive. They can range anywhere from tight-passive to maniac-retarded.
Also with every level you're going to have adjustments here and there. So I don't see why the passive aspect would affect a good players game. You adjust to beat your current situation right? You can hit a passive table even playing 2-5. You could hit a passive table at any given stake, or an aggressive table, etc, etc..... The skill is recognizing the environment immediately and adapting which any decent poker player needs to know how to do.
-bag
Maybe I've just had back luck in my 1-2 sessions at Borgata. I agree about the multiple callers against large opens. In my experience the post-flop play gets really passive. People will raise their very strong hands but I used to see tons of callng and no semi-bluff raising or bluff raises.
I've even done table changes and seen the exact same thing. The tables will have pre-flop monkeys but postflop always turned into ABC passive play with people just trying to get to showdown cheaply.
FK,
Interesting. It seems to me that you can talk to the same player about the same stakes and location and get a drastically different experience. IT all depends. But yes I'd agree that the standard 1-2 player can be characterized as very passive. You still do have your share of maniacs though. The standard passive player/fish (pretty much 60% of the players?) are great for collecting moderate size pots, while you can wait for the right spot and just let the maniacs hang themselves.
I'm not a cocky person at all, but I feel I'm in the top 2% of players I've seen playing 1-2, and that's pretty bad. It's not that I'm a great player, the play is just that bad.
The break-down I've experienced on the 1-2 tables is pretty much:
10% nit- rocks: These are the regulars at the stakes. These fossils sit there and only play TT+, AK. They literally do not know how to play any other hand. Many are also weak-tight. They can't adapt no matter the situation. Many of these players do not even understand set-mining, much less the math behind it! You might see the same guys sitting there with $70-100 behind them desperately trying to get position on bad players. And incredibly enough THEY STILL GET FUCKING PAID. At this level players are almost only playing their cards. So you might actually be able to make money only playing AA is you table selected right. You might want to blow your brains out after the AA experiment though. Anyways, the typical regulars here are not a threat in anyway, but they do pick up dead-money and decrease your hourly rate slightly.
40% tight or loose passive fish: They limp limp limp limp call call. They are playing 20-50% of the deck and want to see a flop if possible. On just how profitable a player from this group is varies drastically. Some are complete calling stations. They might stack off with any top-pair regardless of the kicker or worse. Some are calling a wide range pre, but shut down post unless they nut
20% loose aggressive: And not the "good" kind of loose aggressive. LAG, but not even a basic understanding of actual hand values. Once they run that stack up watch for them to piss it all away as their top-pair/top-kicker gets destroyed by a flush or whatever.
10% maniacs- Just having fun! These guys often don't last long, but wow do they pay well. If you're lucky one may run up a stack to $500+ in a few hours before it all comes crashing down. Then it's back to roulette tables or whatever. A 1-2 table isn't great without one of these.
10% drunks and degenerates- Generally these guys aren't even worth having on the table. They hold up the game so much you wonder if the profit is even worth it.
5% standard TAGs: They really are rare. But there might be a few decent players who are stuck and just wanted to drop for a while. You might also see some decent online players with experience who are just there for a vacation or something. Often they stick out very badly as they wear a retarded poker-stars fleece or something. If you see a 19-25 year old live who wears online poker apparel just assume they are top 5% in the player skill level at that stakes until proven otherwise.
5% other. Anything I'm missing.
Man, I need to get down to Borgata and Harrah's more often. Or I'm picking the wrong times to do it. I should suck it up and play on a couple Friday nights over there. I've been going once in a while during the middle of the week which explains why I'm seeing more rocks.
Last time I went the average age at my table was probably about 45 years old. And I'm 31 so I brought the average down.
Think you are making a wise decision not rushing to 2-5
FK,
Yeah middle of the week is going to be dreadful I'm assuming. Average 45? wow. You're going to hit a lot of senior citizens at that hour. Take pride in the fact that you have helped pay for their social security retirement with your taxes. So have I. In a way we have funded their choice to sit there like stupid rocks and crowd 1-2/ 2-5 tables. Good stuff!
Really the big question mark for me starting out will be what my schedule is like Monday-Thursday. I'm assuming Monday-Wednesday day/nights on 1-2 may not even be worth playing. So those days I'll use for break, study, and online poker. Thursday not sure yet. But if you can I would definitely check out the action on Friday night to find a decent table.
Ben,
Thanks yeah I'm being pretty cautious but better being more conservative at first I think.
-bag